Q&A: How to MAKE a MAD Movement with IMAKEMADBEATS
Artist, producer, and founder of UNAPOLOGETIC, IMAKEMADBEATS. Photo by Gabrielle Duffie.
IMAKEMADBEATS—artist, producer, and founder/CEO of UNAPOLOGETIC—is like really creative. Read the Q&A from our interview available on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts.
ZACK ORSBORN:
So I am joined by the legend, the icon, IMAKEMADBEATS. MAD is a musician, producer, he's the founder of UNAPOLOGETIC, and he is a movement maker. I've been a big fan of your creative vision for a long time—the way you merge your music and fashion and surround yourself with creative people. So I had to have you on the show. So thanks for joining me.
IMAKEMADBEATS:
It's an honor, man. It's truly an honor, for real.
ZO:
So I'll talk about that vision. You know, you have this recording studio, a fashion line and a creative agency and label. Where do you think that drive and vision comes from? What motivates you to create?
MAD:
I think it first starts with like trying to fit in and you don't.
A lot of people mistake it. They just think that you're just so bold and different and you're just daring to do things differently. The truth of it is that you tried to not do it differently. You just got rejected. You know what I’m saying? And you tried to fold into everybody else and how they did it. And it didn't work. And so one day, just out of options, you just were yourself.
And it worked out. You know, and people appreciated the authenticity and the sincerity. And then you're like, “Ah man. Well how many different ways can this show up?” I dress differently. I have different ideas of the kinds of phrases I want on T-shirts. And, you know, my music has always been the foundation of everything.
But at some point, you realize, like, “Wow, I'm actually just a creative.” I kind of do whatever. I have the kind of mind to strategize and make most of my ideas come to life in some kind of way. And so let's just explore, let's see what happens.
ZO:
Talking about ideas, when you get an idea that pops in your head, what is usually your next step? How do you bring that idea to life?
MAD:
So I get an idea, and I'm like a reverse engineer connoisseur. You know what I'm saying? I think that is a gift of mine. So I also have a degree in computer science, so I'm a programmer.
ZO:
Oh! No big deal. You do have the app.
MAD:
Yeah, I programmed the app. But I've been programing since ninth grade. And so to have an idea of a program, right? And then to write the steps and then to write the code. And then the opposite, which is to see a program already created. And then try to emulate it through code.
Or back in the day what we used to do on Myspace, we used to right click. And get the HTML. That's like reverse engineering. You're seeing the matrix behind what you're seeing. And so, I have exercised that muscle to oblivion. And so, generally, as soon as I get an idea, I just begin to put the pieces together to kind of reverse engineer the steps necessary.
Also, something that I do that I think I've been told is quite different is, I think most people, they draw the diagram as to how their idea will come together. I also draw the diagram of what would stop my idea from coming together. So I like to name my demons just as well to name my angels, right?
So that I can be prepared for them and know how to mitigate them.
ZO:
And what are some of these demons that you’ve faced? What are some of the creative roadblocks that you've come across?
MAD:
I think the very first is not doing what's necessary to surround yourself with the right people. So, for example, there was a time where every idea I had when I said it out loud, somebody thought, man, that man's crazy.
He's passionate, yo. Like, hey, man, good luck bro. You know what I'm saying? And now, you know, if I were to say, “Yo, I want to do a cartwheel off of a helicopter parachute onto the top of the Pyramid and then slide down the side of it on a towel,” right?—Kid Maestro's going to tell me the rental costs for helicopters. AWFM is going to bring me a few variations of towels, and that's the kind of people you want around you, right?
You want those. So I think that that was like the first hurdle in the scheme of big ideas. Because big ideas need community, right? You know, regular size ideas might just need you, but big ideas, you need more hands, you need more minds, and you need more people to help you carry it out.
And you want those people to be people who are excited about your idea. So I think that once I tackled that demon as like, oh no, wait a minute, I'm not doing any of my ideas justice if I don't find the right hands to share it with. I think everything else changed after that.
ZO:
What you've built is so amazing with UNAPOLOGETIC. What motivated you to create that and how have you seen it grow?
MAD:
Well, you know, shout out to this year. This year, UNAPOLOGETIC turns ten. So in August we celebrate ten years.
ZO:
Are yall going to have a big birthday party? It's going to be at the top of Pyramid, right?
MAD:
With towels, you know what I’m saying, everything. Because it's Year Ten, I've thought a lot about everything I've learned to get here and even what made me start it. So, you know, I'm from Memphis. You from Memphis?
ZO:
No, I'm originally from Tupelo, Mississippi. I moved here in 2017.
MAD:
Okay. You from down the block, though. So, you know, I'm from Memphis. I've come across—I understand how, when someone says it's hard to be different here, I don't think you'll find somebody who understands that more than me. Because I spent a lot of time traveling as a kid, and sometimes it can be tough to not be immediately recognizable right here.
And, you know, I think that's changed a bit over the years. Like, now we're much better, but ten years ago, 12 years ago, you know, doing things different, I can't—I'm a recording engineer and a producer. So before I started UNAPOLOGETIC, I spoke to hundreds of young artists in the city, usually one-on-one in my studio right before, after a session.
I can't tell you how many people I met who were like, “Man, I want to do X, Y, Z. But man, if you're not just right down the middle, trap or R&B or whatever, it's hard to get that much support here. It's hard to do X, Y, and Z here. That's why I got to go to L.A. That's why I got to go to Atlanta. That's why I got to go to New York,” you know? And so many people told me this, and then they would always finish that statement with like, “Yeah, I know it's just me. Nobody else really feels like that except for me.” And I'm like, that's a lie. I've talked to so many people who feel the exact. Me! I feel the exact same way, you know?
The kind of like pothole that I kept seeing was that people would make things that was different, right, and they would they would be daring. They would push the envelope. And we've never had a problem with creating people who would push the envelope. But when people wouldn't understand it, people would feel rejected, and then they would just go to a city that already has an understanding for that kind of music.
I found that the pothole is like, wait a minute, you kind of have to build the world that explains what you created, right? So for example, you know, I go back to like me coming up and listening to new artists. Stones Throw Records explained Madlib. You know what I'm saying. Like Warped explains Flying Lotus, right?
Roc-A-Fella explained Kanye West and you know, Beans, and Jay, right? It made sense under that umbrella, right? And so if you can create the world, that might help people understand the things that come out of that world. And so for me, it was like, “Alright, cool. Well, what's my world?” My world is all about being boldly, daringly and unapologetically yourself.
In a way that inspires others to do the same. So if I wanted to put out music that I knew was different here. My own music. And then I wanted to be able to put out a Cameron Bethany and an AWFM, and whoever else, and MONONEON you know what I'm saying?
Like, I need to create something that can fit all of that, that makes all of that make sense together. And that's how we started UNAPOLOGETIC.
ZO:
How would you sum up what it takes to be an UNAPOLOGETIC artist?
MAD:
I tell people all the time, like our genre is sincerity and vulnerability.
I don't care what instrument you play. I don't care what you say your genre is. This is why we house all the way from, like, country, folk, indie folk, all the way to, like, punk rap. You know, in terms of artists, right? We have instrumental producers. We have it all, and the only thing I require of an artist, underneath the UNAPOLOGETIC fold, is that you are willing to daringly be vulnerable and sincere.
If you want to tell a safe story that is easy to tell because it's so safe, there's another place for you that's not here. But here, people will see the things that they go through that they are afraid to talk about in you. And you are dedicated to telling that story.
ZO:
I watched your TEDx and in the vein of being vulnerable, I related to it because I was nervous for this interview.
You know I was like oh shit, I'm going to fuck something up. But watching your TEDx and how you talked about your father and being in recovery meetings, I related to that 100%. Through that process of creating that TEDx, did you learn anything new about yourself?
MAD:
Okay. So there's two things. First and foremost, like that's the very first time—that TED Talk—that was the very first time I said those things publicly. So I started UNAPOLOGETIC. I'm the leader of UNAPOLOGETIC. I take leadership very seriously. So that means I have to hold myself to the same standards that this company is holding everyone else, right?
So when I sat down to write my TED Talk, by the sixth or seventh time, it didn't make me uncomfortable enough, right? I didn't feel like I was daring myself to push myself to the next level of vulnerability and sincerity. So, you know, when I started off saying, “I'm nervous as hell,” like, that's me admitting the vulnerability of the moment. But a lot of the things that I talked about regarding my dad, my family, the things I had gone through, these are things that we kept secret. You know, days before my TED Talk, before I actually went in and did the TED Talk, I had a great conversation with my dad, and I told him, I said, “Dad, I'm about to talk about stuff from my childhood I ain’t never talked about. And it involves you, you know, and I just feel like it's important to express this.”
And he said, “Well, it's your story too. You can tell your story.” That was freeing, but it still made me very nervous to be that sincere and vulnerable about some of the darkest moments of my childhood in my life. So what did I learn about myself?
I just learned—I'll never forget this, too—we're musicians. We perform in front of crowds of people who are waving their hands, dancing, doing a whole bunch of stuff. Man. About halfway through the TED Talk, I'll never forget looking out in the audience. And no one was moving. No one. There was no energy.
And I just remember thinking to myself like, “I'm failing. This is trash. Like nobody's really feeling me. You know, just get through, man, and finish it and just get off the stage” and, you know, I just remember, right as I was finishing it, I said, thank you, and I got a standing ovation.
They clapped, and then they just kept clapping. Like it was awkward how long they kept clapping. And then somebody got off the stage and I was like, oh, they felt that. I learned a lot about myself in dealing with discomfort, pushing through. You know, I had never been that vocally vulnerable ever.
ZO:
So you just released Wands. I'm kind of a project process nerd. I like knowing the beginning, middle, and end of what a creative project takes. What was the idea behind that? Also a big fan of, like, magic and wands. When I was a kid, I would like get sticks and pretend they were wands.
How did that start? What were the ups and downs of it?
MAD:
You know, Wands is a dedication to I guess like rebuilding myself. So it's 2020 and 2021. In April of 2020, I woke up, couldn't feel the left side of my face. And then weeks later, I kind of lost usage of my hands properly.
And then it became hard to walk. So I spent most of 2020 kind of rebuilding myself, dealing with a kind of neurological disorder. And then 2020 again, because I kind of relapsed and then the real depression hit, like, feeling like I'm never going to escape this. I'm never going to get back to who I was and all of that.
So I'm a big comic book guy, you know? And in the movie, in the comic book Watchmen there’s a character named Doctor Manhattan who gets essentially destroyed in this particle chamber, and he gets ripped apart, essentially. But he's the son of a watchmaker and a man who repaired watches.
And his father taught him that what is the most important part of fixing or taking apart a watch is putting it back together in the correct order. And so as I was sick, and I was just kind of sitting in my then home studio feeling like, you know, I don't know what the rest of my life is going to be like, I watched that movie and I watched that part, and I just thought to myself, like, man, my dad taught me how to put myself back together too, you know. I saw him fall apart, and then I saw him put himself back together.
And so I was like, well, I'm gonna put myself back together. And I did a decent job. And Wands is—in the midst of putting myself back together and being an imaginative kind of curious person, I was watching a movie called War of the Worlds, and in the movie, the aliens invade.
They're about to take over Earth. And the thing that the aliens didn't prepare for were our microorganisms, right? And the aliens were defeated by the smallest things on the planet. Not any of our nuclear bombs or any of that stuff. Microorganisms is what defeated the aliens. And so, you know, feeling different all my life and also dealing with a sickness that seemingly no doctor can currently understand made me wonder, like, wow, what if I'm like this because I'm not from this place, right?
What if I'm an alien and my body has had enough in dealing with Earth and its microorganisms, and it's time for me to go home, right? And so Wands is the story and the score of me going home.
ZO:
What does home look like to you?
MAD:
So in the story, the thing that I recognize at the end of the story—I wrote the whole story—in the story, I do find where I'm from. But, the trick is that I've been away from there for so long that now the organisms there don't recognize me. So now I'm strange there too, right? And I think that there's parallels when writing this. There were parallels to like, the African-American experience. And, you know, what it is to be and feel homeless.
But, the final thought in the story of Wands is that I'm an explorer and that my home is wherever I am finding, learning, meeting and exploring. And so even when I decided to do Wands, I changed my name from CEO of UNAPOLOGETIC to Chief Adventurer and Explorer, all of that.
ZO:
That's what life is all about is exploring and learning.
You’re talking about how you love superheroes and comics. And I have to ask about the mask because I love a performer with the mask. You also talked about in your TEDx about you being shy and stuttering. Relatable. I was curious if, like, the mask was about leaning into the superhero, the comic book aspect, or is it just like an actual mask to mask shyness?
MAD:
Man. So I'll tell you the story of how I first drew it. I spent years in New York as an engineer and producer at Quad Studios in Manhattan, and when I was still in college, just finishing college still, and I was in a session with Busta Rhymes and he was not sober, and he was ranting about what Q-Tip told him in terms of him turning up in his solo career. Q-Tip from Tribe Called Quest.
And he was saying that, “You know, the first thing you gotta do is find out who you are and what you are.” And then he said, “You got to break the knob turning that up,” and he was just saying, like, “You can't really become who you are or you can't really blow up in this game until you know who and what you are and then be able to stand firmly in that.”
You know, I left that session and went back to my dorm, like, man, who and what am I? Like, what am I going to turn up? You know what I'm saying? What are my defining attributes? I had no idea.
But generally, when I'm trying to figure something out, I just start drawing. And so literally the next day in sociology class. Shoutout to Mr. Snedeker, you know what I'm saying?
I was in class, and I just started drawing, and what I drew was the very first version of the IMAKEMADBEATS mask. In my mind, that's what I looked like. Like that was me. And it was focusing on the things that I love to do, that I found the most important things about me. Which was just that I make mad beats, and that what I actually look like is not important.
Now, with that being said. Once I actually got the mask made and I put it on, I did find that when I put it on, I felt like I'm kind of alone in my room and I'm a kid playing around. It pulls out this kind of childlike thing.
ZO:
Childlike wonder and curiosity.
MAD:
Absolutely. But at the same time looks kind of intimidating.
So it also acts as a border of, like, protection, right? And so, yeah, I mean, that's the mask. I have many masks. I don't wear the mask as much as I used to, but I enjoy wearing it.
ZO:
How do you get them made? Like, what is that process like?
MAD:
When I first—every time we would do a show, I used to get my face painted. I had a friend who painted my face every time. And then one day I was just like, yo, there’s gotta be another way. I got to get a mask.
And, I was looking at these companies in and around the country, and I just didn't like what I was looking at, you know what I'm saying? So I just found—it was a company in Venice. They were making Venetian masks.
ZO:
Fancy.
MAD:
Yeah. And, I liked the way they looked. And I said, “Yo, can you make me one? But it just says IMAKEMADBEATS over and over and over on it.”
And yeah, it took like three weeks to get the first mask made. I still have the picture of the guy, sent me, of him in what looks like a sweatshop of, like, 50 people making things, you know what I'm saying? And it's just like this old white man who looks like he was, like, 63 years old, and he's wearing an IMAKEMADBEATS mask. And I was just like, that's the mask.
ZO:
So you're running a fashion line called GARMENTS. What made you want to branch out into fashion?
MAD:
You know, I kind of just let things come to me. It all started with, like, I had a friend named Wade, and Wade pressed up T-shirts and, I can't remember who said it first, but I'm just known for coming up with phrases that only I say. And I just say it over and over and over again. And, it might have been my wife. I can't remember. But somebody was like, “Man, you got to get all these phrases you be saying on T-shirts.”
So I just hit up my man Wade, and I was like, “Yo, here are these ten phrases. Can you put these on T-shirts?” He was like, yeah, sure.
And one of them was “Character Over Everything,” right? Which is my dedication to the idea that I don't have to deal with assholes to survive in the industry.
Like, I can surround myself with good people with great character. I don't have to—you know, we always feel like he's an asshole, but hey, it's the industry, bro. Nah. I'm good. Y'all over there. I'm good. You know, somehow I've led a decent career surrounding myself with great people. And I'm going to continue to do that. So that shirt was just kind of dedicated to that idea.
When I wore it, so many people were just like, yo, where'd you get that shirt? And I was like, I just kind of made it, you know. And then one day I was just like, yo, I should get these pressed up and start selling them and just put, like, UNAPOLOGETIC on the sleeve and so we did that. I started selling them and people started buying them.
And so the general idea for UNAPOLOGETIC was just that, like, I don't believe the music industry still exists. And the reason why I say that is because music used to be able to live on its own, right? You didn't need a music video. You didn't need any supporting elements. Just the music and the music industry could support musicians.
That is no longer the truth. And so to me, it is simply the creative industry, right? And so all of these things are bleeding into one another now. And, you know, if you walk through my studio, I mean, the first room you walked in was our content creation room. Like, what are we doing if we're not having a space specifically for creating content?
Because that's a big part of all things label and all things putting out music. And so, the same thing goes for clothing, the same thing goes for merchandise and fashion. It's all a part of it. And so I just took that as a sign. It's like, okay, man. Like, let's go ahead and build this whole house.
All the pieces. From having an app to a studio to having a fashion line to putting out short films and scoring them and all of these things, you know what I'm saying? Like, let's just go ahead and build the house to include everything we need in the house.
And so, I grew up wearing, like, Wu Wear, you know what I'm saying? And, when I would listen to Wu-Tang, I used to love when they would describe it as, like, we we wear the freshest garments. There's just something about that word—Garments—that was just always a cool word to me, you know? And so we just call it an UNAPOLOGETIC GARMENTS.
ZO:
I love that. Simple. Tells you what it is, but it’s also a nod to something you love. Are there any, like, with all things going on with UNAPOLOGETIC, are you currently working on any personal passion projects? Any new music or albums?
MAD:
Yeah, I'm actually finishing off the follow up to Wands, which is the Story of Wands. And it's the audiobook version of it.
So what a lot of people don't know is that Wands was actually just the score to an audiobook. I just decided to drop the score first, because if you don't do that, people only pay attention to the words. And I'm a musician, so I wanted to score. I wanted yall to hear the score. You know what I'm saying? And so now we're about to drop the story and all of the things that accompany that. We're formulating things around that. We're about to pop off this planetarium tour, so, we we dropped Wands, and then we did a huge show at the Museum of Science and History at the planetarium at the Pink Palace, and it was sold out, man. Crazy show. And we're about to take that on the road to planetariums across the country.
ZO:
Genius.
MAD:
Yeah, man. Thank you. You know, I'm super excited about that. But then also, like, UNAPOLOGETIC, you know, in the last year, we've been working with a handful of new artists who are really gunning to get their stuff out there and take this stuff to the next level.
So really excited as a producer to usher in and introduce new ideas and new sounds, new people representing new scary things. And then lastly, just to continue to disrupt, to continue to show up in spaces you wouldn't predict.
ZO:
Two more questions.
What do you think the future of music is?
MAD:
Man, that's a tough question. I don't know. I will say this, though. I say, with all things like artificial intelligence and just the way music is kind of evolving in a way that it's making creation accessible to everyone at any moment. I'll just say this, just some advice for anybody creating right now and hoping to build a career in the world of creating. Functionality is easier replaced than brand, right?
There are 60 trillion times more people making beats now than there were when I started UNAPOLOGETIC. And having dope drums is easier. Back then when I started UNAPOLOGETIC, I had the greatest drums all the time. And my vault was so deep it was hard to compete, you know what I'm saying?
But now with a subscription to Splice, you have a whole bunch of drums at your fingertips and a whole bunch of dope samples, a whole bunch of things that mean you don't necessarily have to know music theory as well as maybe you would've had to and blah blah blah. You know, all of that is in play.
You are hard to replace when you stand for something, when you're an idea, right?
And that's one thing that I think I'm proud of is that IMAKEMADBEATS is an idea. Like there's an idea to MADBEATS. There are things that I stand for that make people reach and companies reach out to me, whether it's for music or for my ideas that are beyond my simple ability to put a kick snare and a hi hat in order and a bass line and a piano. Like saying that is produced by IMAKEMADBEATS has a meaning to it. And that's the thing that I would tell all creators to focus on is like, make it so that when people reach out to you that they're buying into the “why” of you, but you have to know the “why” of you first.
You can't tell a story you don't know, right? And you can't get people to buy into a story you can't tell. And so do the due diligence. Even if you're a producer and you're like, I'm not a vocalist. I'm not a rapper, I'm not a singer. Still have an idea to you. Stand for something.
ZO:
That aligns very well because I'm reading “Start with Why.”
And I’m like, oh yeah yeah yeah, that makes sense. So I lied; I actually have two more questions. So what do you stand for? What is your belief? What is your why?
MAD:
Man I want to just read the mission statement for UNAPOLOGETIC. “In this place, our differences are valued and celebrated. We are underneath the umbrella of individuality. Here is where vulnerability becomes art and weird becomes genius.”
There's a lot more in the mission statement, but I think that covers most of it where it's just like where vulnerability becomes art and weird becomes genius.
You know, I'm about the idea that I could never get and ask and demand and command what is for me if I cannot explain and display who and what I am, and I have to be unashamed and unafraid to do that, and I have to lean into the idea that if I do that, you will see more of yourself in me than you thought.
ZO:
My favorite question to ask artists and to close out is if you had all the time, all the resources, what would be your dream project?
MAD:
Man, my dream project.
It would be—
I would want to score Kill Bill 3.
ZO:
Oooooh yeah. Quentin? Call him.
MAD:
Holla at ya boy.
ZO:
Please. I gotta hear that. I want to thank you so much for talking with me. I look up to you so much. You’re the blueprint. And you're truly making a movement, and it's so inspiring to see. So thanks so much for being creative.
MAD:
Man. Thank you for having me. Thank you for creating platforms like this. Like, as soon as I saw it on Instagram, I was like, yes, we need this. And so I'm honored to be on here.
Where to find IMAKEMADBEATS
Instagram: @imakemadbeats
Website: www.weareunapologetic.com